A weaver is working on a new orange textile using mechanical loom (Photo credit: The Bali Curator)

Cecile Schimmel, the cofounder of The Bali Curator. Cecile Schimmel is the cofounder of The Bali Curator. Schimmel was born and raised in the Netherlands, and was brought to Indonesia by research for her study in Visual & Cultural Anthropology. She has lived in Bali since 2013 and has a lot of experience sourcing and working with artisans in Indonesia, both for her own brand First of June, as well as for other brands. In 2018, Cecile and her husband, Angga, founded The Bali Curator, a sourcing and production management agency that aims to set-up and maintain fair and mutually beneficial collaborations between Indonesian makers and (international) brands.

In this episode of aNERDspective (our NERD talk show where we converse with amazing friends about their textile adventure and perspectives), we talked to Cecile about how they facilitate sourcing, production and to be a bridge between Indonesian makers and international brands owners.

Note: This transcript has been edited for reading format.

Tony Sugiarta (TS): Thank you Cecile for joining us in today’s episode of aNERDspective. How are you doing?

Cecile Schimmel (CS): Yes, thank you so much for having me today. You have been sharing very interesting content, so it is very nice to be here and talking with you today. Thank you very much.

You are based in Bali?

Yes, correct. I am based in Ubud.

I actually came across to the Bali Curator through Instagram and also some of our friends that have been featured in the past interviews whom you know and I find it interesting from the perspective of a sourcing agent who works with textile artisans and overseas clients. I am very interested in the story of the Bali Curator.

Before we start, maybe you can introduce a little bit about yourself, who Cecile is and your journey in building up the Bali Curator.

My name is Cecile. I am from the Netherlands. I have been in Bali since 2013. My background is in Visual & Cultural Anthropology, and that is how I actually stay in Indonesia. I did an internship in Yogyakarta. Later on, I also have projects in Bali and Malang in East Java. So, that is kind of how I came to Indonesia and I am still here now, still enjoying it.

When do you come to Indonesia?

The first time was in 2008. It has been a while now.

I did not start the Bali Curator from day one. That has been a part of my journey to get into that. As I said, my background is in Visual Anthropology and I used to work as a photographer and actually I also did some jobs for brands, which are producing products in Bali. I also did a few photo stories, behind the process, what was going on. That is actually how I came into the knowledge in producing in Bali and working with artisans in Bali. From there, me and my husband we get inspired to start our own brand, which is called First of June and it was a brand of bags and accessories made of leather. We produce that in Yogyakarta and Java.

Obviously from that process, we learning a lot because we are working with the artisans ourselves and also we found that many colleagues from other brands were having issues with their production process, especially ones that are not in Indonesia. We get a lot of questions from them about how you do this and maybe can you help find makers of this or that.

Basically, the Bali Curator started to help out other brands in the beginning. From that point, we thought that there is a massive gap, actually, between brands who want to do production in Indonesia and all these artisans have great skills but not always know how to market this skill and find the right customer for their products. That is how the Bali Curator was born.

It seems that it was very organic.

Yes, it was not planned. It just happens.

What are the ranges of services that you do?

Normally, but because of the Corona situation now we cannot do it. Normally we also do sourcing tours. Our clients come to visit Bali, we will invite them for one day tour and visit artisans with them based on their requests. So, they have moodboard and designs, and we select some artists and then we go visit them together. That is one of my favorites services because I think it is really important for brand owners to understand who is making their products and what is going on behind the scene. I think that is the way to actually show it to them. But because of COVID now, we cannot do this.

We also work a lot remotely, so our clients are mostly based in other countries and we help them with the sample development, sourcing for new products. For artisans, we also help them with the production management and quality control, also is a big part of our job. So, before the shipment, especially because shipment cost is expensive, we make sure that the products are checked before they are shipped.

I would guess, pre-COVID and during COVID essentially the services are more or less the same, except for the sourcing trips?

That is correct and because we already used to work remotely. Maybe it becomes more relevant, because many people who used to come to Bali and do sourcing, now they could not do it and now need more agents like us.

Of course you do a lot with textiles and natural dyes. What are some of the products that you work with?

As we said, anything that can be made in Bali, we will work on it, so it is very broad. Some of our clients, about 60%, are fashion brands. So, a lot of textiles are involved there. It really depends, like jackets, shirts, pants, and all kinds of fashion styles basically. We try to promote using natural dyes because we also feel that a lot of clients have not really considered that. It is not for everybody. So, we try to suggest a lot of options and we try to give options that are available in Bali.

This is very interesting that you actually not just help the clients to source for something that they have in mind and you actually suggest stuff that is locally made with skills and heritage included as well.

That is true. Because we feel that the best projects are collaborations. Sometimes we have clients that have designers, they have their shops, great business people or designers and have concepts, but what they want is not really connected to what is available in Bali. Usually, they are very open to suggestions and it is easier to work with something that is available here. We support using materials that are sourced within Indonesia rather than importing from other countries. It is also an easier process if we can do it like that and the clients obviously happy if we do that.

Normally, the conventional (way) is that all designers have a certain requirement and (they are) looking for whatever that can fit that. It is very interesting and encouraging to have two-way communication and collaboration.

To be honest, what I often see, many people (who) approach us said that we are giving education to the artisans about how they should work with clients, etc. To be very honest, in reality, what we are doing, maybe 80% of the time, we are giving education to our clients, rather giving education to artisans. We are telling them about the process, materials available, timelines, etc.

Most of the time, what I feel is, there are no brands ever who said I want to make a brand that is not ethical and not sustainable. No one ever said that and no one has that intention. We want collaborations that are workable and beneficial for both brands and the artisans because we think that is the only way the collaboration is sustainable. To achieve that, it is really needed (for both parties) to understand each other. We cannot have one party trying to follow the other party. It needs to be a collaboration between the two parties. The problem is that maybe not all brands have knowledge about what is going on on the ground, not all the artisans have skills in storytelling or expressing what is going on. That is where we come in.

Your clienteles are mostly overseas or where are they from?

Mostly overseas, but we also see that we got more and more enquiries from local Indonesian designers and we are very happy about that. But I think their needs are a little bit different. Overseas clients need full production management from us, and also for example quality control services, etc. For Indonesian clients who are based here, maybe they can do the quality control themselves, but they just need more information about recommendations like where they can find an artisan. So, we work a bit differently with Indonesian and overseas clients.

You mention a little bit about sustainability and also in the tagline “Ethical Sourcing Agent”. Could you explain a little bit more about the ethical and sustainable portions that the Bali Curator provides?

Ethical… we think that it is a very interesting concept and word because we see everywhere but if we are looking for a meaning of it, it can be quite abstract sometimes. So, what we believe is, like what I said before, a collaboration needs to be uplifting for everybody. If one party is going and another party is not going, that means something is not balanced. We believe that in an ethical collaboration, everybody grows and benefits from the collaboration.

That is what we try to do, to explain to our clients and also to our makers, there needs to be balance. For example, with pricing. If the price is too low, obviously the artisans are not going to grow from that. If it is too high, maybe the clients would not be able to sell it and the collaboration is not going to be sustainable. That needs to be a balance, also with timelines and everything. We are really focused on that aspect. I think what might be a little different from our approach when compared to many others, is that we do not put all the responsibility on to the artisans, but we also put a responsibility on the brands.

A collaboration needs to be uplifting for everybody. We want collaborations that are beneficial for both brands and the artisans because we think that is the only way the collaboration is sustainable. 

Maybe you can explain a little bit in terms of process. When a client approaches you and then what happens in the process?

Usually we get an inquiry on an email, like we want to produce dresses or t-shirts in Bali and we have a concept. First, we have a meeting with each client and we have a questionnaire to know whether or not this client actually suits our concepts. Because if we have a client who says, “I need 2000 polyester dresses every month”, or something like that, we know that is not something that we are able to deliver, also maybe it is not our goal to deliver that kind of production. We think it is really important, from the very start to make sure that we are on the same page with the client. Therefore, we are not too scared as well to sometimes say no to potential clients. Not because we do not want to help, but we think it is not the right fit.

If we think that they have similar vision and mission with what we are doing and we think the products are possible to be made in Bali, then we go to a meeting and have more discussion. When they are starting to work with us, the first thing we will do is to really go to the planning very deeply. It is not like we are going to call the artisans to make something and start. But we really go into what matters to you, what materials that we are going to use (e.g. natural dyes, synthetic dyes) and what are the pros and the cons and etc.

We are going to fabric sourcing, we compare all the options. When that is really clear, we make sure that the design is clear because not all our clients are designers. Sometimes they are business people, they have stores and concepts. We make sure that their concept is translated in a way that artisans can understand what they want.

If that is all clear and done, then we move forward to sampling, and have a prototype made. We work together and that is also very important to us to elaborate with the artisans. If there is a problem, that does not mean that they are not good enough, but we see what is the problem with this process, maybe we should use another technique or adjust the design detail. Maybe there is a solution for that. So, we work together for that and when the final sample is confirmed, then the clients and artisans are also happy about it, then we go into production.

How long does the process take?

Depends on the type of product, but I would say if we start with the planning and sourcing is about one month, then having the first sample made (revisions and back and forward) that will take two or three months. For pre-production samples to make sure we exactly know that it is what is going to be about one month. The production obviously depends on the quantity but basically will be 1-3 months, and then another month for quality control and revisions, and then we shipped.

Those artisans are all in Bali?

Yes, we do sometimes collaborate with artisans that are based in other parts in Indonesia, but mainly in Bali and that is because, as I said, the collaboration part is very important to us and we feel it is just a bit more complex if we collaborate with people who are based far way. If they are based in Bali, we can more easily collaborate and visit to understand about the process.

I would guess that, because as you said majority of the clients are fashion brands and you might have textile artisans ready, I am just curious is there any interesting request for particular materials or artisans that you have to source?

Yes, definitely. There are always. To be honest, we get a lot of requests and I like to see if they have done a sourcing tour and found some materials and they come up with the design, which is very incredible, combining material with each other and it works out very well. I love those kinds of projects.

I would like to ask in terms of working with artisans, how do you select which artisans you work with and what is the model or relationship to these artisans?

We prefer to work with artisans directly. So, we prefer to work with people who are actually makers because a lot of people in Bali, they sell goods but not they are makers directly. The reason for this is obviously for transparency, also we feel that the collaboration is better if we work with the artisans directly rather than have someone else involved. That something that we find interesting and important.

Also obviously, we look for the type of product that they can make and the skill that they have. It is not that if  the quality is not good enough or not up to standard, we do not like to say that you cannot work with us. We like to give feedback about that and we explain what needs to be improved and why. The reason is simple, because the client needs to be able to sell it and it needs to be of a certain standard.

So, we try to give coaching to the artisans, not just sign them off. But we do look at the quality and the type of products they can make. The most important thing to us is their attitude if they want to grow. We want to collaborate, we want to make sure if they are open to collaboration. On one hand of course, the brands we ask to be quite open-minded and flexible about design and everything. We ask the same thing to the artisans as well. It needs to be a project that we work together on. Clients, us, and the artisans, are they open to that (challenge) or not? Basically, that is the most important.

I think you mentioned earlier that you want everyone to grow as well. I think that is very important and you also mentioned managing expectations. How do you convey that to the clients? For example, of textiles with natural dyes that you cannot get the same colour tones, because every batch would be different. So, how do you (convey that)?

That is a very interesting topic because often we get, for example, Pantone codes. We do request it because then we know what they have in mind. It is just a way to communicate that. Of course, the challenge is to communicate back that even though we have a Pantone code, the actual color is most probably not going to be exactly like the Pantone code. Even though we have a sample, the production is not going to be hundred percent like that sample because it is a different batch, it is a different mix, it is different material, etc. That is something that every time we take the time to explain to our customer.

How we do it is usually by showing examples, just to make sure they have a mindset. Also we do quality control before the shipment leaves, but we discussed that quality control checklist beforehand with the client. There, we already specified the range for the colors that are acceptable. The range means it is not just one color, but what is still tolerable and what would we say really too much. So, we try to define as much as possible before we start the production. And by already talking about that, the expectation of the client is already different because they already expect that it is not going to be exactly the same.

They have been mentally preparing themselves for that. I guess the other portion is the timelines, right? 

Yes, we very often get emails saying almost daily, I need a t-shirt and I want to launch them in three days, something like that. As I said, even the planning process only, without starting sampling, is already about one month. If the production should be ready in three months or in three weeks, it is very challenging and not possible. We are very upfront about this and we try to be as much as possible. But that is still a challenge because as much as we can anticipate things that are going to happen, we cannot look into the future until it happens. We can expect the unexpected and we try to do that as much as possible because we know something is going to happen somewhere in the process, whether it be the weather or the material is not available or something. So, we try to anticipate as much as possible on all these things, but still we can only give estimates at the front. We cannot give a guaranteed timeline for that.

I guess there must be some range of possible delays.

Yes, we are very often asked about that but we say that the sampling process is three months. First-time clients, they often complain because if they order to tailor, it can be ready in a week. Yes, that is true (that) it can be ready in a week, but that is without having to go back and forth about the colour or changing something in the design, changing something in the measurements. Also, we need to take into account the communication between the client and the artisans, so there is two-way communication. There is time for checking, there is time for revisions. So in our initial timeline, we already anticipate one or two times about unexpected things that are going to happen.

Could you share a little bit more of the challenges that you face while running the Bali Curator? 

Our main challenge is getting everybody on the same page, to get the expectations straight(ened out). We should make sure that our clients, the artisans and we have the same idea about the outcome of the project, the timelines and everything. That is the main challenge, especially because we are also working with different cultures, in different countries, and in different time zones. There are a lot of differences that we work with. Sometimes, it is challenging to get everybody to relate (to one another).

But, sometimes also it is funny because, in the end, we are all working towards the same goal and that is why we always try to emphasize to our clients and to the artisans as well. It is good for everybody if this project goes well, so we need to find ways for everybody to have the same goal. It will be easy to find a way that works for everybody because we are all working towards the same goal. That is our task and also our challenge to communicate that to all the parties involved and to make them understand that we should all be working together, not against each other.

If an artisan says that they need more time, it is not because they do not want to make the deadline, but it is just because something came up and something happens and they actually do need more time. That is something that is sometimes difficult to understand, maybe for the client especially because also from their perspectives, maybe they have arranged photoshoots or they already have a potential buyer who needs the products at a certain date. (It is) our challenge to get everybody on the same page about these timelines, and about the results. Make it work for everybody. It is a fun challenge.

Yes, I definitely understand in terms of during production, weather permitting or any delays. 

I think you mentioned a little bit in the beginning about sustainability and responsible consumption. What sort of volumes are you working with?

Small volumes. A lot of our clients are also startups, but even for established brands, usually are small volume. So, usually we work with about maybe 20 pieces per style or 30 pieces per style, something like that. It can be a bit more if it is a brand that is more established but if we get an order of a thousand pieces, we see that as a big order. That is a big order in Bali because also the manufacturers that we work with are more home-based individual makers rather than factories. So the brands that we attract are also brands that have a niche market that focus more on creating unique designs, crafted pieces with that story behind it. Usually the brands that we work with usually also find that is important. That is the kind of production actually that we think suits best in Bali. Bali is not for mass production.

Yep, definitely there is an increasing trend for sustainable brands or fashion. What is your experience?

In general, I cannot say that everything we do is a hundred percent sustainable. For example, we also work a lot with ceramics and if we ship them overseas, we still need bubble wrap for example. We are trying to find alternatives for that, but it is not always possible.

That is also like the process itself, not everything is hundred percent eco-friendly, but what we try to do is at least be transparent about everything so that the brands know what is going on and they can make conscious choices. Like what we say about option to natural dyeing, we explain about the consequences, the strengths, the weaknesses, the cost, etc. as opposed to synthetic dyeing. Then we return the final decision to the brand about what they want to do. Some of our clients say that they want to go with synthetic dyeing. So, it is not that all our productions are a hundred percent sustainable.

But of course we find it very important and we want to promote more about it, mainly by giving education. The funny thing is that most people say that we educate the artisans but I say that we actually give more education to our clients about what they could consider. We see that when we give them an option, more and more people agree with that, it is just that they do not always know about it.

On the other hand, as I said earlier, I must say that we do also find there are no brands that have an intention to make an unsustainable brand. But to make it really sustainable, there needs to be some compromises especially in budgets and timelines. Usually those are the two big factors. It is like they want to be a sustainable brand but they also want to be cheap and they want to be quick and that is a big challenge obviously. We cannot always make that work in that way and we tried to explain about it. So if you want one thing, you also need (to know) the consequences of it to really make it work.

We think transparency and education basically are the key for a lot of things. It is true, and maybe a bit shameful, that sometimes sustainability is also used as a marketing tool.

Again, it is about communication because we also encounter brands that they want to be sustainable, but they do not exactly know what exactly being sustainable means. It is important for giving that feedback and education.

We think transparency and education basically are the key for a lot of things. It is true, and maybe a bit shameful, that sometimes sustainability is also used as a marketing tool. We see that sometimes.

I think what we have been talking about is that (it is) a very interesting concept if you ask me. It is that brands usually have the power to describe themselves in terms of how sustainable they are and how ethical they are. Also usually it is the brands who rate the factories or the makers they work with. But it would be very interesting to hear from the makers how they would rate the brands.

We see that there are rates possible for the makers on the some Google brands or Google review, but we hardly see makers who are giving votes to the brands, like what methods did they choose, what timelines they provide, how did they delivered the designs and did they actually give detailed briefs at the start of the project or not. All those kinds of things need to be taken into consideration. For me personally, I can get really passionate about that when I talk about it because sometimes I see a brand  does not give clear enough clear brief to a maker and then they make a sample or a product and it does not turn out the way they imagined it, which does make sense because the brief in the beginning was not clear. Then the maker gets the bad review. Whereas I think that is a bit questionable. It is not always one party who needs to be responsible for those kinds of things. It is a collaboration, as I said. And that is the same for the sustainability part.

How do you mitigate that? Because at one point you are kind of in the middle and you have no say in how the brand presents themselves, but you know what is going on behind the scene.

I think there is a downside and upside from our position because why the makers do not speak up, that is an economical reason usually. Because they think if we provide a bad review for this client – saying they did not give long enough time, or if they say they are ethical when they are actually not. They think that it is going to hurt my business because they are not going to order with me again. That is the reason why everybody stays silent basically.

For us because we are independent, our charge is not based on commission. So it is not based on percentages of the manufacturing costs. We do that on purpose because we want to stay independent, we have maybe a bit more power to speak up if something happens because also we can do it anonymously, like (feedback that) the maker has experienced some things, so it does not hurt the maker directly if we speak up on their behalf. That is the positive.

On the other side, for example, one of our services is also to provide photo stories, like behind the scenes of the production. But if we feel that the brand is not actually living by what they say, we will not accept to do the photo story for them. We don’t think that it is ok if they have all these smiling faces on their Instagram while behind the scene is a different story. So that is our way of doing it but to be very honest, this is maybe one of the things that keeps me up at night. This is something that our whole team and I are often thinking about what can we do because there are still many steps to be taken. There is like a long road ahead.

Thank you so much for sharing. That is definitely a very unique position. I mean people call it the middleman but as you said I think the importance of remaining independent and I think you did that with your pricing structure that is not commission-based. 

Yeah, that’s what we try to do with our business model so we are not dependent on the orders that are placed.

I want to ask about the Covid impact. You mentioned a little bit that there is no sourcing trip, so the clients are unable to come down directly. Are there any particular challenges with respect to the pandemic?

For us personally in the beginning of COVID it was very challenging because I think many brands also had a bit of a panic reaction, maybe, like they did not want to order products at first. So obviously that also impacted us. How we responded at that time was we did a collaboration project also to create masks to help the tailors whom we were using working with, to still give them a job. We started to focus to do more online. We started to make an online class and things like that.

What classes do you offer? 

We did more sharing about this kind of thing, what does it mean to be an ethical brand, how you start a brand. We did in English version and also Indonesia version. We do it because we know that especially here in Bali, the tourism sector obviously has quite gone down. Many people did lose their jobs from that and so we try to inspire what they can do.

Actually a very interesting thing that we have been seeing going on here in Bali in the last year is that years ago there were many artisans and craftspeople especially the younger generation moved to tourism because maybe it was more beneficial. They expected more from that. Then the tourism sector fell down and what we can see is that many people are moving back to the crafts, weavers, etc. So what we try to do is encourage that movement basically and also extend (their services) to our clients.

I was very moved by the few clients and clients who did a sourcing tour with us. They actually contacted us and said that they feel so bad for Bali and asked us what product we recommended them to buy to support these makers. They are actually on purpose place order. In my opinion, doing business is a great way to help and I feel that is much better than, for example, donating. I think doing business together on the same level is very powerful especially in the times like COVID right now. So The Bali Curator tries to play a part.

I actually wanted to get the swatches book of the textiles, but the woven one is out of stock. It was sold out. 

That is another thing (that we do). Obviously normally we would go on sourcing tours and people can see the fabrics directly which now is difficult. We found that we are often getting quite similar requests to do fabric sourcing processes for certain types of fabrics. So we said why we did not make it a book so people can order those and have a look at themselves. I must say that for the hand-woven, we focus on the hand woven fabrics in that book, but it is fabrics without motif. So it’s not like for example ikat or batik, it is the plain fabric.

But those are Artisans from Bali? 

Also, Java.

What is next for The Bali Curator? How do you want The Bali Curator to grow? 

Well, basically at the moment we are still working as usual on many projects with interesting clients. It is very exciting and also we have a few collaborations going on. Maybe we will develop a few products ourselves in the future, like in collaboration with a few artisans. Our main goal is how to give a more powerful voice to the artisans, like how we can represent them in a better way and point out the things that may not always be fair. It is not only to point them out, but how we can give education to both parties, like how we should handle this and how we should improve the situation. That is basically the whole key of The Bali Curator.

So we are definitely looking forward to The Bali Curator’s products and merchandises in the near future.

Finally before we close off our conversation today, do you have any final messages to wrap up the whole conversation today?

Well, first of all, thank you very much for the opportunity and thank you very much for listening to everything and sharing.

As a conclusion, I would say for all brands, if you have a brand and if you are working with the artisans, just think about responsibilities. You can do it yourself, anybody can do it, it is not that you have to do it through The Bali Curator to be able to do this. I believe that everybody can do this. Just think about who is responsible for what, what did I ask from that other party, is that fair, what benefit did they get from this collaboration and what benefit did I get from this collaboration, is that balance or is it not. I think that it is very important to ask these questions to yourself.

Yes, very nice words in terms of we grow together as a collaborator and that is one of the takeaways that I would get from today’s conversation, how we balance out each other –  the strengths and weaknesses and how we vibe off.

Yes. Exactly. It is great to work together.

We hope you enjoyed this episode of aNERDspective. Check out the previous episode on IGTV and our gallery and store if you would like a piece of Indonesia for your home or wardrobe. You may also check out The Batik Curator’s website and Instagram for the latest offerings.

Photo credit: The Bali Curator, unless stated otherwise.