Screenshot of Batik Fractal software interface.

Muhamad Lukman is an award-winning entrepreneur with international product recognition. He co-founded Batik Fractal as an extension of his post-graduate projects of developing a fractal software beyond architectural design. He is committed to preserve culture and empower artisans with technology implementation.

In this episode of aNERDspective (our NERD talk show where we converse with amazing friends about their textile adventure and perspectives), we talked to Lukman about the work behind the software and how it can be applied beyond just creating a new batik and tenun textile design.

Note: Full video is available on IG TV and this transcript has been edited for reading format.

Tony Sugiarta: Thank you Mas Lukman for coming to aNERDspective today. How are you? How is COVID?

Muhamad Lukman: I am fine, thank you. I do not have any coughs and fever, so I guess that is a good sign.

How about activities, how are you doing?

Right now, for Batik Fractal, we are doing several software trainings. We also produce several new lines for our ready-to-wear products. For DiTenun, which is one of our lines, we are also making several products because we are about to launch products in December. We are also in the process of finishing the software for DiTenun, maybe it will be launched in December.

Sounds that there are a lot of things going on, and COVID is not stopping you guys. Probably we (can) get into the software, I would like to find out a little bit more about yourself, maybe you can introduce who is Lukman and your journey in starting up Batik Fractal and DiTenun.

If I am introducing myself, it is more about in terms of Batik Fractal and DiTenun. My position in Batik Fractal and DiTenun is as a designer, specifically the Head of Designer, in which I am in charge of directing all of the products and the software design. In general terms, I am also in charge of making sure that the products will be delivered on schedule and also products will be the same as planned. The software will be launched in December, I am making sure that the product (the software) will be ready, the social media, the products related to software, and so on.

As for my background, I used to be an architect, so maybe it is far from textile in general, but it also has to do with the design and the system. It is related to batik or tenun in the art or in the process of making it. For my postgraduate degree, I made a software to generate patterns for architectural design. So, maybe there is a connection between batik, tenun, and that’s what I used to do or what I learnt at university.

Interesting. It is definitely the combination of design and arts that started your journey. How do you get in touch with textiles?

In 2007, I was doing a postgraduate degree and I made a software related to architecture using fractals to generate building. The objective of the software is to generate buildings automatically using fractals. Fractal itself is a branch of mathematics. It deals with iteration and self-similarities. I see the batik behind you, there are similarities between the birds or the flowers – the patterns. That is what we called “self-similarities”. I am using it as a software to generate buildings. My friends and I also found out that batik also has a fractal characteristic which is the iteration of the patterns. So we think that the software can also be used to help artisans or designers to make new patterns based on traditional ones. So, that is the history of why I look for textiles to use (ed.: apply) the technology.

We look at it and we found that there is a movement in the art and design which is called generative design or generative arts. It is a movement where art and design can be generated using systems itself and by using technology to generate patterns using fractals. We make that technology that is a fractal-based to generate batik patterns. So, in 2007, we found J-batik and we also found a conference about this movement in Italy in 2007. We submitted our paper on our technology together with several of our batik designs to this conference. They accepted it and after that, we think that maybe we can make something out of it. I think it is one thing lead to another and we started to get serious about it. We started to make products, hired some people, and made a company, which is Batik Fractal Indonesia.

The company started in…

In 2009, we are a bit late about it because we were still young and we talked about entrepreneurship and such. We are still learning the ropes about it, so we thought about it in 2007 and made it a company in 2009. 

As I am an ex-scientist too, I am very curious, do you study all the different batik designs for inputs into the program, how does that work?

Basically, the software generates patterns and how do they generate patterns? We use traditional batik patterns to make new patterns by changing the parameters of the batik patterns. Before we do that, we have to study what is the relationship between batik and fractals. In 2007, we studied about 200 batik patterns, we mapped, studied, researched, and quantified them. Then, we came with a conclusion that batik is fractals. Visually, it is a fractal because we can see iterations of batik patterns, but we also want to make sure that batik is fractals. We have the scientific research, we have the reports, and then we conclude that batik is fractal. We then continue by making the technology, specifically to produce designs for batik.

Batik itself is generally classified as batik pedalaman and batik pesisir, is that something that you studied as well?

Yes. There is a difference in the layout between the coastal regions and places, like Yogyakarta and Solo, for example. For coastal regions, the number that shows on the layout of the pattern is more random compared to Yogya and Solo, which is more compact, more “grammatical”. We tried to mirror that in our software, which is the randomness, the geometry and the layout of the patterns.

So you can create either the coastal batik or the inland batik using the software?

Of course. So people have the tools to create. For example, if they want, (they can) create batik coastal regions, such as in Surabaya, or create batik which is more compact and geometrical in Solo. Or, they can mix them up, using the layout of the Solo ones but using pattern of coastal genes from Surabaya, Madura or Cirebon, which can create exciting new patterns.

Very interesting. Is the software open to the public?

Yes, the software is open to the public. We, as a company, sell the software and also conduct training for the software. That is the basis of our company, which is to help traditional batik artisans, students, schools, universities. For people who generally like batik but do not know where to start and how to draw it, we help to make them understand batik and draw the base on the software.

Is there any non-batik maker who uses the software?

Of course. There are several people that do that as a hobby.

What do they use it for?

They want to make batik patterns, but they are not an artisan or a designer. They just want to make batik but they do not know how to draw or have any connection for batik or art designs. They are curious about batik, they want to know more. Or they happen to be (in an occupation) related to art and design, such as school teachers. For example, in mathematics or science, they want to teach fractals in science or iterations in mathematics with something that is more visual and exciting. They want to know how to teach students about science, but in a different way from the usual stuff from school.

Yes. It is definitely a great training tool. One of the things that I like to do is to find the connection between art and science. Hence, for your papers and your technology, I have been using that a lot, for a reference, when I am doing my workshop and seminar.

So, you are not strange to the concepts of science and art and how to combine that.

I was a chemist before I am doing batik. As I got to learn more about batik, it is not just about art, culture and history, but also the science, including chemistry of dyes and the fractals, the geometrical patterns and the mathematics behind that.

Yes, I think that is exciting and people tend to forget that when they talked about batik. When they talk about batik, we always talk about traditions, but we sometimes forget there are other stories related to batik. You mentioned but not many people talk about it, such as the chemistry of how to dye the batik – how to make sure the colours will be bright or pastel. People tend to not understand that, they tend to see batik as a finished product, but they do not see that as a journey of making batik, which is very exciting.

Yes, a lot of possibilities. So, do you train the artisan to use the software as well?

Yes. We have trained about 5,000 batik artisans since we started in 2008. We got people from specific regions, they came to us, they wanted to learn about the software, so they came in groups about 5-15 people per group. They want to learn about it – to make new patterns, or to documenting the patterns. The software is not always about generating patterns, it is also about documenting the patterns. So, they can learn the software and also document the history of the regions.

I see. Do you mean that it is a user-generated input to enhance the software?

Yes. There are several ways to create the patterns. First, they can draw the pattern using the software. Second, they input their own patterns into the software and they can play out or change the patterns. Third, they can order the software to make new patterns.

We can actually build up the database to enhance the future generation of the software?

Yes. That is what we aim to do because we see that documentation of art is always a problem, not only for Indonesia, but all over the world. People who have the knowledge, they are older. Passing down the knowledge becomes more difficult because the younger generation does not know much about it. They are not attracted to it in terms of traditional ways but they are more attracted to technology, design, and art. What we are trying to do is (to ask) what if we can teach the younger generation to use the software? So, (with this database), passing the knowledge from the older to younger generation can be easier.

Documentation of art is always a problem, not only for Indonesia, but all over the world.

You mentioned about the younger and the older generation. I imagined that the younger ones are more attracted in terms of using technology and software. How about the older ones when they see modern design vs. traditional design that they are used to so much and there are certain strict rules that you cannot modify traditional designs? What are your experience with that?

Well, we have many experiences about that. What we are trying to do is to pass the knowledge to the younger generation. Some older generations are not very open about it. Like you should not meddle so much with the traditions, you do not have to do anything about it. If that is the way they think, that is okay, there are several people who think that way. But there are also several people who think that we can enhance tradition by using technology. There are several people who accept the technology and we help them using the software.

Now, of course, the older generation, maybe they are receptive and they are more open to technology, but some just do not have the capacity of using the technology. Maybe we see several older generations that do not know how to use cell phones or laptops. It also happens when we teach J-batik, how to create batik patterns using the software. So, they usually have their sons, daughters or their relatives, who are younger, maybe from high school or universities, to help them using the software when we teach J-batik. It is very interesting when the younger generation learn the software and the older generation, their moms, dads or uncles, sit behind them and telling them what to do, which is quite fun actually when seeing them work hand in hand using the software.

So, they actually attend the class together?

They attend the class together. When registering for the class, they only wrote one name, but when they came to the class, maybe 2 or 3 people came, whether it is their uncles or parents, daughters or sons, usually in pairs or three people, which makes it more exciting.

After you did the design, you bring it to the artisans to continue with traditional batik- or tenun-making, is that right, or what are the next steps after you design with the software?

So, there are two (product) lines. First, we sell and teach the software to traditional batik artisans. After we teach them, they can do the batik on whatever they want. They can make their own patterns or design whatever they want. Second, a line of batik fractal products. We make the pattern first and then we ask the batik artisans to create the patterns onto the textiles using our design. Usually the batik artisans are the people whom we have met using the software or people whom we have taught using the software.

Are you aware of anyone who is using (the design) as an input to the machine-printed textiles?

Yes, we are very well aware. There are several people who are making their own batik patterns, they sell and use it as t-shirts or other products. We are aware because of social media, actually. We sometimes see hashtag #batikfractal or #J-Batik. When we see the products and we thought it looks very similar or familiar with our products. We are quite happy with it.

How do you hit that sweet spot between using technology and incorporating traditional techniques and design? How do you make sure that they are both hand-in-hand?

So, we are almost have it hand-in-hand. Once we make the patterns using software, we ask traditional batik artisans or craftsmen to produce the batik or the products. We make sure that there is a value of the human hands on our products. Usually it also add values to our products.

We mentioned about reception of the older folks and older generations, what are some of the challenges that you have? One, when creating the software, and second, when you are marketing the products or introducing the technology to other people?

Well, in terms of selling our fashion line or textiles to older generations, they are quite receptive because our designs are usually more modern. It is not the usual traditional designs, but they are quite receptive. They are open to it. But it is another story with the technology because several people think that while it is tradition, you do not have to mix it with technology. If the tradition dictates you to do this and this and this, so be it. When we meet people like that, that is fine. I mean, there are many people that we can also help because they want to add new values, which is the technology, onto their products, onto their art, and onto their designs. So, when we go to traditional art fest, there are always people in both opposite directions. That is fine, we always find someone who is willing to accept technology and incorporate them into their designs. 

Yes, when I am talking to different people, they are definitely different groups, different clusters of people, the pros and against technology in textiles, especially when we are talking about traditional textile with such a long history and culture and it is very interesting to see. With this kind of conversation we are trying to start a discussion and to see the different perspectives of what people have which, I think, is more important than just speaking (ed.: talking or commenting blindly on social media).

Yes. I have no objection if people want to keep it pure, making that from scratch using just the traditional way. That is fine. We have a lot of people who are willing to do that, accepting that, but there are also many other people who are willing to accept technology as a part of their everyday life, or part of their craftsmanship. For me, I am ok with that. When we start doing this, we see the traditional batik artisans do not have software, the technology or tools to document their patterns, and to make new patterns based on their designs. There are other software in the market, but there are no software specifically designed for the craftsmen of weaving or batik. So, there is a market for people who are willing to accept technology as part of their life and I think that is the way at look at it. For me, I want to explore and that is exciting.

Yes, you touch on a very important part on documenting which, I must say, we need to get better.

Yes, we definitely need to get better because the older generation will not get younger. When they pass away, they pass away along with their knowledge. I think that will be a problem because when they do not pass the knowledge, we only see the patterns only as patterns, not the history behind it, how they make it, and things like that.

The second, we do not have the mentality of documenting our history and I think we need to fix that – to document our tradition and our history in the way that younger generation can also benefit from, which is using software to generate new pattern. Not just documenting it and it goes to the museum, but to document it, acknowledge it, and using it as a new way to progress, to make new things based on their generations.

An iteration.

Yes. That is the theme of our software.

So, you are not just iterating a single design element, but also iterating the culture.

Yes, iterating the culture. You speak better than me regarding that. That is what I am trying to say. 

The iteration of design in J-batik software and the corresponding result as a shirt.

Now, I would like you to share a bit about your new product, DiTenun. Maybe you can share a little bit about the process of making that: when do you start and why do you start with that (project). 

Tenun or weaving is also a part of Indonesian history. We know, in general, there are two types of fabrics. The first is batik where we apply the art of design on top of the textiles and the second is we apply art of the designs into the textiles, which is the weaving. We see that we do not have a technology specifically for weaving artisans to help them make new products and document the products. So that is what we try to do with DiTenun.

So, DiTenun is a software to help traditional weaving artisans to generate weaving patterns based on traditional ones, or they can make new ones. They can use it  to make new patterns based on everyday objects. We started that in 2015 or 2016, in a collaboration with a university in North Sumatera, IT DEL, and also with the help of the government in terms of funding. So it is a three-party development project. We have the technology, we have the funding and we also have a specific set project which is in North Sumatera. In December 2020, we are trying to launch the product, a software, and also the product (line) based on that project set in North Sumatra. So, in North Sumatra, we have a specific weaving called Ulos. Ulos comes from the Batak tribe with specific patterns, specific way of making the product and specific stories. And we try to encapsulate them into the software and onto the products. 

So, the product is based on Tenun Ulos? 

For this December, yes, we have a specific project, which is to make Ulos. In the long run, the software itself will not only be used just for North Sumatera, but also for Indonesia. We have various weaving processes in Indonesia which is different from Ulos. Basically, it is the same but with several variations. We are trying to make this specific project set in Sumatra as a base for all the other weavings in Indonesia. 

In your perspective, what is the comparison between creating a software for batik versus creating a software for tenun? Which one is easier/more difficult? 

They both have different challenges, although both are textiles. When you draw batik, you are more free in terms of applying the designs on to the textiles. Batik is a traditional art that you apply the patterns on the textiles using a tool called canting. Canting has wax and we apply the wax on to the textiles. For weaving, we weave the threads of the cotton or silk to generate, not just textiles but the pattern inside the textiles, which is more fundamental, I guess.  We say it is more basic because we are not just creating the pattern, we are creating the fabrics. So the challenge is how to generate a fabric that is not only structurally sound but also when you look at it, that is the pattern that I want and that is a great pattern. That is a challenge of weaving.

Also, when we talk about weaving, it is unique because we are talking about binary, meaning we have zero and one. It can also be applied in weaving, for example 0 is when you don’t see the pattern and 1 when you have a block of patterns. When you combine the 0 & 1, you can generate the patterns. That is very exciting to see patterns, not in terms of a traditional weaving but to see them in terms of mathematics, in terms of computer. And to make another pattern using that perspective is very fascinating because we have not done that. I think that is a challenge for us to move forward in this project.

I would imagine the free-flowing batik has got more challenges in terms of creating a code or formula, whereas tenun because it is more structured, you might be able to see the patterns easily?

Yes, that is the difference. One is more complex because batik is more free flowing and one is more structured because weaving is about making the structure of the fabrics. So, both have different challenges but both are exciting. 

The product is going to be launched in December?

Yes, in December, we will try to launch the products, the software and the products of the software (ed.: merchandise).

Is this product (the software) available on subscription or (do) you (need to) buy a license for a period of time?

The software itself is running on a website. The reason is because we want to reach as many people as possible. Right now, it is free, everyone can use it. They can make their own patterns on the website. We hope that people will try to use the software, use the website and appreciate the textile.

Also, we have a service. When they like the patterns that they make, they can ask the traditional weavers to make the patterns or craftsmen to apply that on a t-shirt, a tote bags, etc. Basically, it is about democratising art and design for the people so they can make their own patterns and to ask traditional craftsmen to make the designs. 

It is really interesting and (I am) really looking forward to it. Especially when everyone can try it for free. Very important!

Yes, I hope that everyone can enjoy using the software. Everyone can look at it as a new way to appreciate textile, not just by looking at textile but also to be hands on and make it (yourself). I think it is a new way to appreciate the traditional art. 

Yes, definitely. You get to experience a different perspective. We are so used to learning about textile art in terms of culture, heritage and history. So, this is something fresh and new, I would say, for most people.

Yes. It is fun. It is a very simple way of designing, you just (need to) drag and drop if you want to change. You can easily change the colour and it is not hard. It is very easy. You can look it out in December. 

I would see that it could be easy for us as the user, but certainly is not for the designers or the software engineers.

Yes. I think we have our own challenges, I guess. 

Yeah, especially when you started incorporating all the different designs across Indonesia which, I guess, it will be much richer.

Of course. For every region, they have different ways of making the patterns, mixing the colours, and producing the fabrics.

We are almost towards the end of our conversations. Do you have any concluding remarks or closing words, for the fans?

The traditional art, or craftsmanship, is an exciting thing when we look at it not just simply as that. If you look at it from a new perspective (through) designs, science, mathematics, chemistry, you can appreciate them more and, maybe, it can bring you closer to the art in your everyday life. We also want to try to move forward, not just in terms of traditional ways, but into a new direction, which, for us, it is about the technology, science and designs. I think that is the right way to enhance our batik and our weavings. 

If you look at it from a new perspective (through) designs, science, mathematics, chemistry, you can appreciate them more and, maybe, it can bring you closer to the art in your everyday life.

Thank you, very well said. As we talked about earlier, this tradition and culture is evolving and is living. It is exciting news. It will continue to change and it is how we create new designs and to create a new level of appreciation. Probably, I have one last question: do you think that your work will ever stop? As we mentioned, it will keep on evolving. Where do you see the end point of the software? Like, “Ok, I think I have done everything that we need and the software can run on its own.” Do you think there will ever be such a point? 

I don’t think so. And you may ask why because we also sometimes ask ourselves when do we think that our invention will be over, to just be done with it and it can run by itself. I think that we will never stop to continue to challenge ourselves because people evolve. People want to try new things, people want to know what is next after this and we want to keep up with them. Technology is always evolving. The society is always evolving. Traditions, the economy, the market are always evolving. Science, technology and computers are evolving. I do not see that there is a point where we should stop because there will always be a new challenge that we want to pursue.

For example, (now) batik is a two-dimensional thing, but what if we can make it into three-dimensional using the software? And there will be new artisans who can help to make the batik, not just in two-dimensional (2D), but also in three-dimensional (3D).That is quite a challenge for us but I think that is exciting.

Or, for example, for weaving, what if we do not use cotton or silk or maybe there are new products or new threads that we can use to make textiles. Maybe we can ask traditional artisans, let’s not make two-dimensional and maybe we can make three-dimensional fabrics, for products such shoes and bags. They do not have to cut the textiles but they can make a three-dimensional product using the software. I think that is just an example of what I think will be a challenge in the years ahead. 

Thank you once again for dropping by today. 

We hope you enjoyed this episode of aNERDspective. Check out the previous episode on IGTV and our gallery and store if you would like a piece of Indonesia for your home or wardrobe. You may also check out Batik Fractal or Ditenun website for the latest Batik Fractal product and service offerings.

Photo credit: Batik Fractal, unless stated otherwise.