Earth pigments on cloth, Nidiya Kusmaya’s collaboration with Jatiwangi Art Factory (Photo credit: Nidiya Kusmaya)

Nidiya Kusmaya straddles between the world of art, science and design while exploring colours from natural materials. Her scientific experiments paired with her artistic research practices yield a unique artworks that was displayed in her latest exhibition Berburu dan Meramu in her hometown of Sukabumi in West Java, Indonesia

In this episode of aNERDspective (our NERD talk show where we converse with amazing friends about their textile adventure and perspectives), we talked to Nidi about her experiments with different materials, micro-organisms included and her experience as an artist/scientist in the field.  

Note: This transcript has been edited for reading format.

Tony Sugiarta: Thank you Nidi for joining aNERDspective today. How are you?

Nidiya Kusmaya: I am good. How are you?

I am good. How is life in Sukabumi?

Actually, it is less of a rush than in the big cities, it is more chill here. I met my friends from school and felt quite nostalgic at home. It is quite nice.

I saw one of your latest exhibitions, Berburu and Meramu. I thought that the concept of your work is really interesting which we will get into it a bit more. Maybe you can introduce yourself, who Nidiya is, your journey in exploring textiles and natural dyes.

Actually I am not defining myself as an artist, a designer, or a researcher. I am doing a little bit of everything. I graduated from art school and fine arts, from the Textile, Craft and Tradition Department, so people often called me a textile artist. I do not specify it myself. In my opinion, arts and science are quite the same things, so you can call me anything, a designer, anything, (basically) someone who is working with colours.

Is that your primary focus? To explore colours?

Yes, especially from natural materials.

Which school were you from?

I graduated from Bandung Institute of Technology, from the Textile, Craft, and Tradition department. 

My motivation is to share that you can do many things with materials from your surroundings.

Why textiles?

In my opinion, textile is not just a piece of cloth, art, or technology, it is a little bit of everything as well. You can have a journey back in time when exploring textiles and maybe you can also think about the future. It is also really close-related to us as a human being because it is our basic needs as human beings. So, it is really interesting. In so many aspects, you can learn anything from textiles, not just the art side or scientific side, it is also about the tradition and culture itself. So many things to explore through textile, that is why I am really interested and I am always excited with textile because everytime I learn about textile, there is always something new comes up. It is really exciting for me.

I guess in two broad categories of your work, one in the material exploration, as well as natural dyes. Probably we can start with natural dyes first. How do you explore and develop your practice there?

I learned it from school. For natural dyes, colours created from materials are really interesting because it will achieve some form of uniqueness that cannot be achieved by any kind of synthetic or man-made materials. You are not really sure about the material and so many (different) aspects of the material itself. So, it is really interesting to explore. Also, I have a feeling that when experimenting, (as if) I am travelling back in time, when the old master paintings make pigment for their art. I was always curious if they were feeling the same, the excitement of discovering or finding new things. I know that I can learn many things from that, no just the colour itself, also from materials and the relationship with other people just through colours.

It seems that the narrative that you put forth on your latest exhibition, like the different learnings, not just the technical aspect of colours, but also the different stories that you want to highlight in your latest exhibition entitled Berburu dan Meramu (To Hunt and To Formulate/Gather).

Yes, it is like (going) back to the hunting and food gathering age. People have limited knowledge about materials around them and are searching to find new forms of colours and other stuff, not just food. The same jungle in the different era that we live in. I just think that way. I hunt for new materials and formulation and gather new materials and make things, like the new alternative for textiles and colouring technique. I have a limited knowledge about science because I have no background on science. But through these colours, I learned a lot about science as well. I really like it. So, I feel like a caveman who tries to explore things from the surrounding neighbors here and finding new things.

What is the motivation behind this exhibition?

The first thing is because I never have an exhibition in my hometown. Behind this exhibition, my motivation is to share that you can do many things with materials from your surroundings. Some people just like to stay in their hometown, not going around or exploring things. Some people just have no chance going places. There is no reason for them not to do things. We have a lot of things to explore in our neighbourhood. We should act together, especially in the pandemic situation like this. You can do many things, just look around and your surroundings and you can make your artwork, your scientific research or anything that you want to make.

How was the response from the audience?

It is really good, it is beyond my expectation, because I am not really sure that people would understand. Our hometown is not an “artsy town”, it is more of a regular sub-urban town, they do not understand art. Because I bring issues like food and colours itself, so I think it is relatable to many people. It is easier for them to understand what I deliver. They are also interested and they want to make the same thing from food that they eat or they want to explore dyeing.

Is it the first art exhibition in Sukabumi?

Not really the first, actually we have some local painters, conventional art, wayang, and so on. Conceptual art is not really going around in town. Some people have the art residency program because they are interested in suburban things, but the way I am doing it is more inclusive, so many people could join online and discuss. All the materials are used daily, they can find it in their home. More people could join and easily understand what I am doing.

I would say that I am relatively ignorant of arts in Indonesia, I know the bigger places like Yogya, Bali, and Bandung, but all these different places like Sukabumi and Jatiwangi which I just knew through collaboration through an e-residency. It is encouraging that people in different cities come with different concepts and how to appreciate art.

It is really interesting, the response is a bit different from big cities, but that is really interesting.

There are a lot of different artworks that I see from the video. What is your creative process, from ideation to execution or finding materials, how do you process that?

It is not an overnight idea, it is more of a process. At first, I do not know I would end up here as well, but I just believe in something that I really like and what keeps me excited about, and colour is one of them. When I make colours, it always makes me happy because I meet a lot of people, learning different cultures. So, from the ideation I always pick something really closely related to me. Many people understand, but they just see (it as) regular things in our daily life. Many people overlook it and not really put into their interest. From the process of gathering household waste, meeting people in traditional markets, the owner of the veggies or fruit shops, or maybe the farmers themselves, they are curious about what I am doing because I just collect their waste and trash. They think that I am super weird to do something like that, but I show them what I am doing and they are really interested and want to work together. They help me gather stuff and there are so many responses I get from people and with different perspectives. Sometimes I give them textile I made from their waste and they really appreciate it.

What materials do you use, you dye yarns and cloth, is it?

Yeah, I collected some materials from the backyard, like from fallen leaves, trees, grasses, from agricultural waste, waste that the supermarket produces (like expired milk, soybean). I use it (ed.: the soybeans) for mordant as well. I gather those. Sometimes I extract food, veggies, or from restaurant or café waste (like tea and coffee grounds) they still have some colours there. I extract them traditionally using a kitchen instrument and make colours out of it.

By kitchen instrument, what do you mean? What do you do with them?

I boil them. There are so many extraction process techniques, one of the easiest ways is just use water or rain water, because there is a lot of chlorine in the tap water, and then boil it. I also have a pond and I collect water from there and boil and strain it, like making coffee or tea, and dye my stuff.

Well, collecting rainwater is illegal in Singapore.

Why? Oh, maybe because there are chemicals, maybe someone is planting something in the cloud and spreading a new kind virus. *laughter*

We do not know. One of those Singapore as a “fine” city. 

What was the most interesting material or source of colours, any particular wood or fruits?

For now, I really like to experiment with black colours. I do not know how to describe it. In some tribes in Indonesia, it is considered as a sacred colour and some of the tribes have already lost a good technique to make black dyes. I come and search for particular plants that is historically how they make the colour, especially in West Java. 

Every time I travel around Indonesia, black colour is always considered as a sacred one. I am also searching for a particular technique around my area, in West Java for black colour. Now, I am doing a collaboration with Jatiwangi Art and they are also considering the same thing with the black colour. When I asked people the history about black colour in our region, I discovered a really interesting past history.

Are there any particular sources that you have found so far that can give black?

You mean the plant and the materials? We can make it from tea because there are so many tea plantations in West Java. 

Also from malaka (ed. Indian gooseberry), I do not know it in English, it is like green grapes but the leaf is like a peanut leaf, something like a tamarind tree. The plant can be found in the forest. I ask some people who work in the plantations if they can give it to me when they find this tree. From my journey to East Indonesia, meeting with the weavers and natural dyers from villages, I also always ask them and bring some materials to compare.

It seems that you can work with any materials. Is there any particular materials that you avoid?

I avoid material that is not really highly available, like cendana (ed.: sandalwood) expensive wood, but they still sell it in Indonesia illegally. It is better for me to avoid it. I did a little experiment with leftover material from the expensive wood, but for daily dyeing activity, I avoid it. It is expensive.

Yes, one is definitely the cost and two, the scarcity of the material. I want to talk a little bit about a couple of artworks, the one that caught my attention is the wall of a food diary when you were doing residency overseas, like the colour of leftover pizza. Probably you can share a little bit more about that piece, how did you end up with that?

It is not really a leftover pizza, but it is the fresh trash when making pizza, the leftover material. Some were surprised if that is leftover pizza. We could grow some bacteria and get colours out of it. But the particular one that I made, the title is “Everything in the Menu”. It was my first residency in 2016 in Blönduós, Iceland. My proposal was that I am a tropical girl and I want to challenge myself in finding a new natural source in a strange environment that I have never been. I am just curious what I can produce during my stay. So, I went there for a couple months during the summer time and in my head during summer time there would be many flowers and things growing. But I have been there in two weeks and I have no idea what I should do. 

I am not the only one who uses natural dyes, there are three other artists also use natural dyes. They were from Europe and already knew what kind of plants (to use), but I have no idea about plants in the Arctic region, so I do not know which one is poisonous or the ones protected. They protect their environment because it is really hard to grow plants there, so I decided to collect food waste in my town, a little town in the North. There are few houses, café, supermarkets, so I ask them, (with help from) my artist friends, from residency, from the office, to collect food waste. Every two weeks, when people cleaned up the refrigerator, I was the one who was excited and really looking forward to collecting it. I made a lot of formulations from food waste that we produce daily. When we go on a picnic, we eat a lot of oranges or make some rhubarb jam, so I can make my diary of what we eat today, what we are doing, and so on. So, it is more of our diary. I decode our daily life in things as simply as in colour.

Is it the leftover fresh waste that they discard after they cook, right?

Yeah. Sometimes it is not just the good ones. In some cases, the spoiled one I (can) still use, but it is better to use fresh material. The environment is cooler there and the food waste is not easily spoiled. So, it was a really nice experiment that I did there.

How long were you there?

More than two months, it was the transition at the end of summer and early autumn but it was cold everyday. Even though they considered it hot as (it was) summer at that time, it was 10 or 11 degree Celcius and I was so cold. Since I lived in a dorm, the wind was harsh and I felt cold, but many Icelandic people just wear t-shirts because it was summer. 

That goes the same with the concept for sayur asem.

Yes! There was also some trash from warung padang (ed. A Padang restaurant).

I was thinking, are you blending leftover pizza and extracting the colour.

Yes, I did in some of the cases. For example, for the protein and also the carbohydrate base, I grow bacterias and some micro-fungus to produce colours from the leftover, the one that I could not dye with. I plant some bacteria and micro-fungus, I can collect and make colour out of it.

During the same residency?

No, it is different, it is my own research during my Masters.

Okay, I thought you did all of that within two months.

No. It was just a handful with waste.

I want to find out more about the bio-colours. How do you get started experimenting with bacteria and fungus?

Before my Master’s degree, when I had just graduated from my BA program, I was still running around in campus and there was nothing much to do, I was an Assistant Professor. I was hanging out a lot in my friend’s lab from the Biological department. So, when I need a refreshment from the studio, I always hang out in their lab. 

One day, when I was collecting material from the market or from my studio, I did not wash my clothes and napkin (immediately) after I am working. As you know, I am working with some waste and it will turn damp, so it would easily get moldy. When it is moldy, it will be hard to get rid of the mold when I wash it. 

Then, I just had an idea to make some colours out of mold and I bring my dirty napkin to my friends and ask about how to grow it. They then taught me how to grow bacteria and how to make a bacteria culture. I ended up in the lab and one of my professors saw me and told me to put it to my Master’s (project). So, I applied and I continued to do that.

Interesting, and how do you extract the colour? You just let the bacteria grow on the media? 

I have some different techniques. Some of the bacteria are extracted, but most of them I just let them grow on the fabric. It is controllable. So, I control the growth of the bacteria itself in a certain condition. So I grow them and then kill them when they produce the maximum amount of the pigment.

It is something like baking bread. So you let it ferment.

That is actually quite the same process. 

It is very interesting. What sort of colours (can you get)? Can you pick the colour based on the bacteria or how does that work? 

The easiest colour is pinkish, a bit purple and then red, yellow, orange and also brown and black. Those are the common colours with the easiest microorganism to take care of. Some of them produce really pretty colour but because the bacteria is quite dangerous so with my limited knowledge so I just choose one that is harmless for me, so I can do some experiment with it even without the proper equipment like in the lab. I do it at my home studio sometimes and if I need some of the scientists’ help to extract or maybe if I am facing something that I do not really understand, I will go back to the lab and ask them how to treat it well.

It seems, going back to the beginning when you are introducing yourself, you kind of have this scientific process mindset in terms of doing research, but also you have the artistic side that is just carefree and easy going and just let it be whatever.

Sometimes it got me in trouble actually, I mean when I hang out with the artist friends, they always say that I am too scientific for them. Sometimes they think that what I am doing is not important but the concept is the most important. That is the art (crowd). When I hang out with my friends from the design field, they think that if you just do an artwork, it has no impact, no bigger impact. You should scale it up so many people will feel the impact. And when I hang out with my science friends, they think that I am so crazy and told me to do more science. Sometimes it just got me in trouble, but at the same time it makes me closer to them because they know my background, so they are willing to teach me more.

Likewise, I used to be a pharmaceutical research scientist and I am doing textiles now and a lot of my practice has got that similar scientific process in how I approach research and also discovering new ideas that are very art and conceptual. So yes, definitely understand you. 

You feel the same, right? That is the interesting feeling.

The other work that I wanted to talk about is the collaboration with the Jatiwangi, the clay projects. 

It is  called “From Tiles to Textiles”. I am experimenting with the earth pigment actually because they (in Jatiwangi) produce a lot of clay. It is a different colour of Earth that they are using in their pottery and also for the roof tiles. I asked them to give me some of the dirt or maybe the leftover dirt, the pigment they are using from the earth. I am just experimenting with it. Sometimes, I combine it with the natural dyes from plants or just simply mix some of the earth I find here in my region. I then paint my textile using those materials.

Are these pigments mostly for surface dyeing, for example block print, or can you use it for things like textile dip dyeing?

Well, actually the pigment, like the earth pigment, they are using it for painting, not for dyeing. But with some techniques, we cannot do that because they do not dissolve in water, so they need another solvent to make it applicable to textiles. If we are using the protein to mix with the colour, there are some techniques that we could use. So, for this kind of particular earth pigment, we can actually dye with it. Or maybe we can use it as the mordant because some of the earth pigment also contains a lot of iron and we can use it as the mordant for plant-based pigment and mix them together.

I see, understand. I think everyone loves you because when you come, you are just collecting their trash. 

It is easier for their life.

Yeah, exactly. 

Can you share with us some of the challenges that you have during the course of your work?

The collecting part is sometimes really hard because some of the people did not really believe me when I collected it. I mean, for example, in the supermarket. They often throw away a lot of food, even though the fruit is still fine, just a little bit imperfect, but the grade is not really the one that is suitable for sales in the supermarket. So, when I want to collect it, they do not really believe me. They are afraid that I will sell it again somewhere in the town even though I bring the official letter from my campus or my labs to explain that I am doing it for research but they do not really believe me. Maybe they are just afraid I will make it into something and sell it somewhere, cook with it and stuff. So I just picked a traditional market or maybe from the farmer itself.

Sometimes, I also need a proper lab to do it where I need to know the exact particular formulation or to measure it well, not just like with the kitchen equipment and stuff. Sometimes it is hard, it is a little bit expensive to do but with my connection with university, sometimes my professor would just let me in to use the lab. But during the pandemic, it is completely closed. Everybody has limited access to the lab, so I come back with my conventional technique to make my own colours.

Do you work in the design department or in the science lab? 

One of the professors from Biology (department), when I asked how to use a particular instrument because I have no idea how to use it, he just said, “you are a biology student but why can’t you use it properly? You should know. Even the freshmen of the first semester will know how to use it” and I just say “No, I come from the art and design department.” And he is like “oh, really?” They then become super excited and just teach me.

I like it that people from other disciplines are very receptive to whatever that you are doing.

Yeah, even though sometimes I come up with crazy ideas and they think that it is impossible to do here, but sometimes they just follow my needs and we just do a lot of experiments together and come up with a very nice result. Even though there is a failure at the first maybe, this is a really exciting thing to do together. 

Other than showcasing and invoking thoughts through the exhibitions, is there a particular application of your work? 

Oh, well, actually because for the past, almost two years, I am joining a biotechnology company, the one that produces mycelium and stuff. I just do my artwork during the weekend or my free time. So, it is limited for me at that time for doing the artwork. But, I did gain a lot of scientific knowledge that I learned a lot from them, and experienced from them. Now, we are working on a project (basis). So I have more free time and I really want to produce my works more so it is more (to make it) publicly available. So I hope later, like this year, it will be publicly available. I mean the textiles, the artwork that I make. For the past year, I just do some commission for particular people, such as designers, etc. But, now because people are a little bit curious about my textiles, I also wanted them to be more approachable for diverse or bigger audiences. I really wanted it. I mean to scale it up and make it publicly available for people as well. 

Are you referring to selling the textiles as an apparel or as an artwork?

I am working in both, for the artwork and some for the textile, just like general textiles.

You mentioned a little bit about your residency abroad and I believe you have a few other residences overseas. Other than natural dyes, you also do surface exploration and material exploration. Maybe can you share a little bit about some interesting collaborations that you have while working with overseas collaborators?

It was during the Dutch Design Week in 2018. So there were five teams, so five designers/artists from Indonesia and also from the Netherlands. So we team up together. My team from Mycotech Lab, the one that produce mycelium leather, and also Iwan Pol, he has a studio which make tiles and concrete with happy colours, and also Karin, she explored textile with the new technique of heat binding so you do not need to sew or use zipper to join it together, and I obviously make the colours. So, we worked together in collaboration using the mycelium leather, I coloured the mycelium, Karin will make the purse and make the textile using her technique to join/bind it and also Iwan make the tiles from mycelium as well. I put some colours, like painting the mycelium concrete. 

Is it the same starter but they give two different textures, one leather and another one concrete?

Yup, and also tiles, it is really interesting. Also one interesting collaboration I did is with the ceramic department in Bandung Institute of Technology. So we make our inspiration was from kintsugi, to combine the cracking with the golden ink to join. We just find out because we have a positive response from my artist and scientist friends from Japan. They said it kintsugi, like kintsugi technique in ceramic, but I use the real “kintsugi” because I bind it by growing the micro fungus from the crack. Kintsugi in Japanese means the technique in joining ceramic and it also means micro fungus. We have no idea at first but we have some positive responses because I make the kintsugi using the real kintsugi. This is really interesting because we have no idea what is the meaning of the word. When we get the response, it is really nice to us to know.

So, you grow the micro fungus within the cracks to seal them? 

Yes. Actually our experimentation begins with how we can make alternative colours for ceramic. But when the ceramic is cracked at some of the parts, my friends ask whether I can grow it in between the cracks or maybe filling up the cracks with the mycelium or maybe the micro fungus. I said let’s try to do that. And we did that.

Really interesting.

In general, how do you observe the way people work overseas in your capacity as an artist/scientist?

Maybe they are more open. That is the way they work. So they just accept me for who I am and learn from each other and build something new together. They also have really nice facilities over there. That is one thing that is a privilege for them. Also I realized how privileged I am living in Indonesia with abundant materials, compared to them, especially in particular places or countries. There are not really highly available material, especially natural materials itself. The techniques are quite the same but there are also the differences, so we can learn it together. 

In terms of conceptual and art, like the way they think of the materials itself, they will think further than the people here in my own town. The way they see it as a new material is easier there. It is easier to accept it there rather than here in Indonesia. When I first started it in 2014, especially with the bacteria or more experimental materials, they were more open for me to work within my idea and (combine theirs. We were working together. 

Sometimes, in Indonesia, there are so many rules, especially with the tradition. There are some limitations as well. At first, I am kind of crazy, doing many things that are just breaking the rules especially if I am working with some people, when I am learning dyeing from the people in the village specially. Sometimes, I am just breaking the boundaries. But I know how to balance it, how to communicate with them and I also respect my tradition. I should find a good balance between the tradition as well as the technology that I am involved in. Technology is quite new for most of them, which is not the “right” way according to them. But, they will understand me also.

Can you give me an example or elaborate more on the “breaking cultural boundaries”?

For example, making the black colours or making blue from indigo dyes, In some places, for a woman during her period, they cannot make the colours. So if I am on my period, they just don’t let me (do it). So I just do it myself. At first I had no idea why they did not let me do it. I have no idea that there are such rules. When they told me that, I understood, I honored that. For example, when making the black colour, I cannot step into the wood, I cannot put it on the ground, etc. I wad thinking that it is just a material, I just put it in the ground. I have no idea such a thing exists. Sometimes the senior, like the grandma of the household, is mad at me and forbid me putting the wood in the ground, or ask me to honor the wood. There are some rituals I should do before I make the colours. This was when I first met them. Now, we met every year and we are just like a family. They know me and they really supports me with what I am doing. But I need time to explain to them as well and they also teach me the way they make it. 

That is a very good observation because in honouring culture and tradition, there is a certain space that will evolve in the contemporary settings. I think the conversation is very important to understand each other. 

Yes, because it is so different. Once when I just freshly came out from abroad and the other one when in Indonesia working in the village. It is a completely different thing. But I came in (to a new environment) and you should learn (to adapt).

We are almost towards the end of our conversation. Can you give us a little bit of a preview of the upcoming projects that we can expect from Nidi? 

I am working on some new materials, but for more specific, I am also collaborating with Jatiwangi art. We will work with herbs, for example jamu materials. Maybe that I can tell. I am doing such collaboration projects with them so just stay tuned to see. It is really interesting because I am also learning about a new culture here. I mean how the spices and the herbs from Indonesia is involved with the culture and also technology and stuff.

Final question: can you share a final thought or closing remarks to sum up today’s conversation? 

Do whatever makes you happy. I mean, we just need to pay more attention to our surroundings, be more observant and see things with different perspectives, not to just judge the materials with things that we already know. You could find something new out of it and you can make anything actually with the materials, even from your bedroom. Start from your kitchen, your yard or something. You can make anything out of that and utilize it to the fullest and be respectful to your neighborhood and to your tradition. I feel that I am so privileged that I was born here with such a rich culture and also rich materials. 

Also, keep excited, I think that is the most important thing because some of the people, especially the younger generation, are also excited at first, but it was only in the beginning. They just feel that it is too hard. You have to be resilient. You will face so many failures in new life and stuff, but you should keep on the pace that makes you happy. When you need a break just take a break, but do not lose your excitement and just be happy.

Thank you so much. I think you point out a very good message in terms of being aware of your surroundings, and everything starts from home. We can start small from home.

We hope you enjoyed this episode of aNERDspective. Check out the previous episode on IGTV and our gallery and store if you would like a piece of Indonesia for your home or wardrobe. You may also check out Nidiya’s website and Instagram for the latest collection.

Photo credit: Nidiya Kusmaya, unless stated otherwise.